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  #11    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Tim L. Walker's Avatar
Tim L. Walker Tim L. Walker is offline
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Yeah, sorry if I wasn't more clear, Kara said more what I meant... I'm tired and grumpy, so I'm trying to not make that come across in my posts.
  #12    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 05:45 PM
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yonnermark yonnermark is offline
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np.
I just think (in my humble newbie opinion) that this forum shouldn't be about technical critique only. Just because my shots aren't tripod-mounted and meter-spotted etc doesn't mean they are destined for the fun snaps section.

I'm not at all being offended here, just enjoying a [probably tired old] discussion about what is a "snap" and what is a "photograph"
  #13    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 05:49 PM
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Kara Kara is offline
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The critique gallery can be a powerful place to learn how you can improve your work, and make what you may think is your best shot even better. I know I have learnt a lot from critique forums such as this one in the past year or so. You just have to be open to the idea that it can be better.

And then some times we may get it completely wrong. One of the photos Ive posted here before that I initially thought was crap and so did everyone else did to is concequentially going to be in a calendar

My point is that people will make comments, but its your decision whether or not to implement them.
  #14    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 05:52 PM
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yonnermark yonnermark is offline
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that's right, Kara,
I understand that I am posting incomplete/imperfect shots that:

a) could have been taken better on the day
and
b) could have been treated to better editing
  #15    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 05:53 PM
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yonnermark yonnermark is offline
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p.s. I would love to have taken the shots in this thread with a nice SLR with wide angle lens and an external flash.
  #16    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 06:48 PM
tom foley tom foley is offline
Elite Member
Tim

I'm so surprized!

The idea of the "snapshot aesthetic" is well established in serious photo criticism. There's lots of stuff out there on the web. Just google it up.

Yonner's photos are not "snapshots" in the pajoritive way you use the term, but are "snapshots" within the context of the "snapshot aesthetic."

Yonner has a point when he argues "look at...modern art, and listen to modern art music. Do you see/hear much evidence of technical expertise in there?" An anti form, anti perfect, anti highly technical attitude has been making a strong impact on the arts for at least the past two decades in all sorts of media. Think of punk rock, for starters, where the whole idea is "anti form, anti perfect, anti highly technical." Perhaps we don't like punk rock, or don't take those implications seriously, but serious music critics and historians do.

As you know by this time, I believe, my work is hardly anti form, anti perfect, or anti highley technical. I'm very aware of the rule of thirds, correct exposure, and composing on diagonals. I shoot with a Hassalblad, or the best Nikons. But sometimes, too often, I'm afraid, those rules and ideas and high end cameras are nothing but constipating to creativity.

At 60 years of age, I'm probably the oldest photographer that participates on the corner. I've made my living taking pictures since 1967. That's 37 years. The point is that I'm old enough and experienced enough to know the ebb and flow of creativity within my mind and body. I've been through these cycles many times. And sometimes, creative people get jaded and need somebody like Yonner to come along and blow them away. We should welcome him to these pages rather than relegate him to "photos for fun," preceded by the implied threat that his work will be "ripped apart." We should also enjoy him. Afterall, his photos are fun.

Yonner's work reminds me of that of Jean-Henri Lartique. Again, lots of stuff out there on the www. He started as a child taking photographs at the turn of the century, when his father gave him a camera. He knew no rules, and had little technical expertise. He was a child exploring what the world looked like photographed. Sometimes his pictures are very "snapshotty," but somehow, they are just right. And sometimes they are simply elegant. Very much like Yonner.

I think we should regard Yonner's work very seriously in the context of the "snapshot aesthetic," and think of him in light of Lartique's work, as well.

Sincerely
Tom
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  #17    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 07:14 PM
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Ski Ski is offline
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Yes, I agree with Tom. On other forums I've seen some wonderful images slated (as opposed to properly critiqued) because viewers weren't happy about some technical aspect of it. I too believe that it's important to have a thorough knowledge and understanding of the technicalities - and I believe yonnermark mentioned elsewhere that he doesn't have this yet - nevertheless, I think it's a mistake to critique solely on the basis of what's technically correct, because creative talent/artistic ability don't necessarily conform to our perceptions of correctness.
  #18    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 07:28 PM
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I didn't know which thread to comment in, so I will here since it's the one at the top

It seems that a lot of us, and most professional and skilled amateur photographers, are highly analytical when it comes to shooting and critiquing photos. It's just how we've learned and has become our nature.

This is the critique forum and if someone doesn't like the photo due to it's technical qualities, it's not a shot at you personally. The shot may have tons of value to you and a few others, but to the 'other' group, it just looks like any other plain snapshot. Kind of like the brown paper bag that got so much attention.

I, for one, don't favour the artsy snapshot style, but hey...different strokes for different folks.


Just curious which UK band are you with? UK rock is pretty big around here.
  #19    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 07:28 PM
tom foley tom foley is offline
Elite Member
Hi again everybody

I've just taken a look at what others have written in the time it took me to pen that last screed, and now I have more to say.

Yonner's photos do appear to be taken from the point of view of a memoir. But so what? The annals of photography and literature are full of highly esteemed memoirs that may have been created with a memory book as a model, and are regarded as classics. What is Robert Frank's "The Americans," for cripe's sake, if not a photographic memory book. What is Samual Peyps's diary, what is Benjamin Franklin's diary, if not literary memory books. There is a rich literary and photographic tradition of memory books and memoirs.

Yonner's work should be critiqued within that tradition, rather than faulting him for embracing it.

As for too much blur, blown highlights from flash, and so on, I think I dealt with that in my last screed, when I made the similar point that there is a rich artistic tradition of anti-perfect, anti-form, artistic expression going back at least two decades, which by the nature of it's meaning, pays little heed to perfect exposure and composition.

Highly esteemed art and literary historians regard both of these genres seriously. I do too.

Sincerely
Tom
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  #20    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 07:47 PM
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yonnermark yonnermark is offline
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Well I must say I'm REALLY enjoying this little discussion. I've never really actually sat down and discussed this kind of thing before. In real life nobody I know cares enough to have such an in-depth discussion over my shots, they are too busy saying things like "Oh, is that when you went to america?" rather than just keeping their mouth shut and absorbing the photo for 1/2 a minute.

I've just looked up some of Lartigue's work and I must say I'm loving it. Look at this shot and imagine if he'd posted it here



Obviously, the composition should be better, the foreground is wasted and the action is too far away but FORGET all that because LOOK, THERE's A GIRL DOING A ROLEY-POLEY (as we call them) and what could be better than looking at a freeze-frame of that? It's brilliant AND it's hilarious - look at those serious folk stood around watching, lol. Thanks for the reference Tom and I'm flattered by much of what you said

Rob, the band is called jobe - www.jobe.info
They aren't well-known at all but there's a couple of mp3s worth a listen
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