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  #21    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 08:03 PM
Ski's Avatar
Ski Ski is offline
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Must say I belong predominantly to the 'other' group that Rob mentioned. Of all the shots you've posted so far yonner, there've been two I really liked; the reportage style shots and the album cover. The others went against my grain somewhat, but I can appreciate them on an artistic level.

To me, snapshots are pics taken by joe bloggs on his family holiday with little or no thought about how the shot will turn out. That doesn't describe your photographs.
  #22    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 09:54 PM
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Tim L. Walker Tim L. Walker is offline
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This post is more or less for tom, but not 100%. I think I am well versed enough in popular culture and photography to realize and appreciate what you referred to as "snapshot aesthetic" "modern art" etc... I don't really like it. It reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer becomes "an artist" by throwing a bunch of junk together, and then some "modem artists" fall in love with his stuff... by the end of the episode, though, "modern art" has moved on beyond his creations. Rob can probably pull up the episode from somewhere if you want. Probably not the best example, and I am certainly not comparing the photos posted here with Homers' creations, but that's what came to mind.

And yonnermark, do not take this at all personally... I am not attacking you at all. If I am to appreciate abstract/modern art, I need to personally think and understand that you know what rules you're breaking, otherwise, it seems to me, you're just taking simple snapshots. I know not everyone will agree with me, and that's fine. This is my opinion, and I am certainly not the god of Photography (but maybe the god of photographycorner... LOL). Anyways, I don't expect everyone to agree. When I look at most (not all) of the photographs we are discussing, I see snapshots, not artistic photographs. I see shots that tell me that the photographer has a good eye, but a limited grasp on photography. It certainly is refreshing, as I'm getting sick of looking at perfect little macro shots, but refreshing doesn't make it quality.

Basically, my point is this. Obviously the photographs in question are not "technically good" (whatever that means), and they obviously have some artisitic qualities (though that will vary depending on who is looking at the photographs), but does that make them good or bad photographs? No. It makes them photographs. It's great to see such a varying opinion. I really don't like them, tom loves them. We're both good photographers, but have completely opposite opinions. That's what makes photography so damn cool. That's what makes art so damn cool.

Take critiques with a grain of salt, never at face value. Have fun. Takes lots of photographs. And don't let anyone tell you a photograph is crap if you like it.

I need coffee, thanks for reading. Now I have some work to do.
  #23    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 10:02 PM
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Ski Ski is offline
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Quote:
It certainly is refreshing, as I'm getting sick of looking at perfect little macro shots,
Damn! Did you have to make that comment just as I'm about to splash out on a macro lens, Tim?!
  #24    Top
Old November 24th, 2004, 11:52 PM
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Tim L. Walker Tim L. Walker is offline
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Sorry... hehe. They're good to have, just tend to be overdone.
  #25    Top
Old November 25th, 2004, 01:16 AM
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copy copy is offline
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it would be SO much better if you got all of the guy and a bit more of the bed
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  #26    Top
Old November 25th, 2004, 02:48 AM
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SteveJ SteveJ is offline
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Re: Bedroom Gymnastics (not adult)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yonnermark
I was touring New York State with a british rock bank (I organised the tour and drove the van.... and bounced on beds). Here's the pics from a hotel. ROCK N ROLL!!
The principle is this:
2 double-beds are next to each other. Run up and jump on the first one then fly through the air and land on the 2nd bed. Et voila = much fun.
Hi,
going back to the original post, those are all the words that accompany the photos.
That strongly suggests to me that the photos have nothing whatsoever to do with critique. Nothing about critique is stated, but only words on having fun. In fact all critique offered in the posts that follow on have been dismissed - further confirming that the photos do not belong in the critique area.
Surely this area of the forum is about how to become the master of an art.
Art is learning. Throw away the the instructions and there is nothing left to learn. Isn't this critique area the place where the photo artist comes to get analysis on work in order to improve on it? To become better skilled, a Master even.
The art of photography has absolutely nothing to do with the photos that have been put forward - Just point and click. Like it or not, they are nothing else but fun pictures, and that is all they will ever be. Nothing to do with art whatsoever - because art is learning.
There is nothing whatsoever wrong with fun pictures - figuratively, they help the world go round. Therefore they should not seek the need for justification.

Steve J
  #27    Top
Old November 25th, 2004, 04:23 AM
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yonnermark yonnermark is offline
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Quote:
Art is learning
who told you that? Art is in the eye of the beholder.

Quote:
Throw away the the instructions and there is nothing left to learn
I disagree. After all, who sets the "instructions" and why should be followed more than what your own mind can come up with?

Quote:
The art of photography has absolutely nothing to do with the photos that have been put forward
Whilst I think it's great that you have such self-assured opinions on these matters, I do again disagree. Show me any holiday snaps that look like that. You won't find anyway, what you will find are photos taken from the doorway of the hotel room looking back into the room as if to say "..and this is where we stayed when we went to Delhi University".

These aren't documentary shots, they are crude art shots taken on an entry level, fixed-lens, poor lens camera.
  #28    Top
Old November 25th, 2004, 08:53 AM
tom foley tom foley is offline
Elite Member
Hi all

Glad to know your still listening. This could develop into an even better discussion, if it doesn't get too testy.

I'm going to bow out for awhile, as it's Thanksgiving, and there is much to do, and I have much to be thankful for. Later on, if and when I find quite a good deal of time, I hope to write down my thoughts on photo criticism, and hopefully post them sometime this evening.

I hope you'll all stay tuned.

Tom
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  #29    Top
Old November 25th, 2004, 09:53 AM
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yonnermark yonnermark is offline
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I for one am looking forward to that.
  #30    Top
Old November 25th, 2004, 02:40 PM
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SteveJ SteveJ is offline
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Basic, foundational, prinsciple in art = Art is learning.

Art : as in it's established, official, long recognised, dictionary definition, and meaning.

Failure to recognise that basic prinsciple in art brings forth further error:

Error = Art is in the eye of the beholder.
Correction = Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If we throw away the instructions set by those that have learned before us, then we are going to be open to further error - for we learn nothing.
The consequence of that is that we become a very poor artist - for art is learning.
That is true whatever the chosen art subject might be.

It follows that in order to gain proper recognition as a true artist we need to be able to display a skill that is relevant towards our success. That skill has to be acquired as it certainly isn't there when we come into this world. It has to be nurtured - and for that to happen we need to learn.

Hence the definition, long held over centuries : Art is learning.

Once that basic prinsciple in art is grasped, there is room to move forward. Only then do we begin to become an artist.
Whatever we produce otherwise - certainly isn't art.
We do not display the skill that is associated with the learning.

The value of Critique, indeed its very purpose, is that it offers us a chance to have our much valued art efforts analysed for further improvement, so that we may move on to become even better artists. Better for having learned.

In summing up then: If we do not wish to learn - then we do not become an artist - and our works do not become art.

Art Is Learning.

Until that foundational prinsciple is grasped, further progress cannot be made - for we are closed to it.

Steve J
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