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  #21    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 11:28 AM
Tad's Avatar
Tad Tad is offline
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When it comes to personal photography I think its fine to do whatever you want to your photos in the name of art. Personally I try to use only basic editing tools, lightening darkening, saturation, ect. and focus on the art of capturing the photo. I havnt gotten used to the idea of using photo shop to remove whole pieces of content like fence posts, but I dont mind it being done.
In the realm of photo-journalism and publications like Nat. Geo. where viewers are being impacted and educated by images they assume to be real, full disclosure is extremely important. I think they should carefully caption dramatically altered photos to explain how they are altered and why. If they don't, those sources will lose credibility.
The case of yonnermark's above would be a hard one to call, im not sure if I would fully trust digital images to decide a court case.
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  #22    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 03:27 PM
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darwin darwin is offline
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i saw an add for photoshop in a magazine today...it showed several photos with a remark on each stating what was done to the image...and at the bottom it said to use photoshop for all your "digital deception" needs...seems very fitting.
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  #23    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 03:31 PM
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how decepting is it to use a fish eye lens, or a filter?
  #24    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 03:44 PM
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yonnermark yonnermark is offline
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I class using a filter very similar to using an editing quite.
  #25    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 04:05 PM
Sivaram Velauthapillai Sivaram Velauthapillai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom foley
Hi

I'm with you, Sivaram.

What follows is some stuff I wrote a couple of months ago when the topic was photoshopped to death, or not. To me, it's really a linguistic concern. What do we properly name things is the issue to me.
I think you posted that in a poll I took. Interestingly, it was something like 25-1 (or something like that) with most accepting digital manipulation. I think you were the only one who were against it...
  #26    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 04:10 PM
Sivaram Velauthapillai Sivaram Velauthapillai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kixphotography
i don't like the fix on the full size tree though...i prefer the original.
yeah.. I like the half tree too... but Marsha likes the full tree and it's good to get different perspectives and feelings...

Quote:
as far as the street lamp i feel a different angle or position of the pole would've proved a better shot. the composistion is a bit off there.
This was such a simple shot that I don't know what I could have done... I think it's a bit too basic... just a lamp and a clear sky...

Quote:
the first shot of the sunset could've either used a tighter zoom or perhaps a different composure. looks as if there's too much top sky in there.
That's at max zoom (it's actually the Subway shot zoomed in all the way--you can tell by looking at the center of that shot)... When I took the pic I didn't think it was that good but now I like it a lot... it has an artistic, painted-like look..

Thanks for your comments...
  #27    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 04:27 PM
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kixphotography kixphotography is offline
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Quote:
as far as the street lamp i feel a different angle or position of the pole would've proved a better shot. the composistion is a bit off there.
maybe just a tighter shot to get more of the better show the lamp post.
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  #28    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 04:36 PM
Sivaram Velauthapillai Sivaram Velauthapillai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marsha
well, i'm sorry that you feel that way, and i do understand to some degree, but just because some people are editing photos doesn't make it less of a picture, and doesn't change the history of photography! I think that is a very narrowminded comment from someone who doesn't want to move into the future. That's like saying, i'm going to drive a horse and buggy forever because automobiles arn't really naturally occuring therefore are not a true means of transportation!
I don't think Tom's point is that digital manipulation should be outlawed--or that humans shouldn't partake in it. Rather, I think he is of the opinion--one that I support--that there is a difference between edited photos and unedited photos.

I don't think this has anything to do with technology or moving into the "future". Rather, it is an issue of 'editing' vs 'photographing'. The question is, are edited photographs part of the art of photography? I think it depends on your ideals and how you look at photography.

I don't think anyone--at least not me--is passing a value judgement on editing. Am we saying that graphic designers are evil demons from hell who shouldn't be allowed near photographs? Not really! Editing is definitely a skill and will exist forever. However, the issue is whether that is part of photography. I think that's what Tom is getting at.

Marsha, I can see why you would be a little displeased with Tom's post. You are a graphic artist, among other things, and I imagine you took it as an attack on yourself and your profession. Well, I don't think that is what this is meant to be and *I* certainly don't think any less of you because you edited my photo, or edit photographs for a living. The question is not whether editing is evil; instead, the question is what role editing plays in photography. Obviously you stand on one end and Tom stands on the other. I tend to stand closer to Tom than you because editing diminishes photography by blurring the line between reality and fantasy. Is airbrushing right? There is no answer. As you point out, some people derive joy from seeing good pics of their kids (which otherwise might have turned into a poor unenjoyable picture). That is certainly good from humanity's point of view. Editing has also been used by people like Stalin to airbrush people out of existence and is that good? Well, whatever digital manipulation is, it certainly has--and will--have a huge impact in the future...
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  #29    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 04:46 PM
Sivaram Velauthapillai Sivaram Velauthapillai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yonnermark
Quote:
I'm not really a fan of removing "things" to make the pic look better (unless it is with an artistic goal)
Isn't it mostly with an artistic goal? (such as with the image in question in this thread).
No. Quite a lot of editing is done for non-artistic reasons. In these cases, editing is done to present the perfect reality (which obviously wasn't captured by the photograph in the first place). In other words, you are not trying to create art; you are trying to create reality. For example, in the tree picture, the photo would have been meaningless if everyone thought the tree was fake. The only reason for editing the pic in the first place is to capture a real tree (as opposed to a fake one) and then present it...

I don't have any numbers but I would speculate that most editing is done to fix defects in the pics. A very commonly used example is airbrushing supermodels to make them look better than they are (eg. removing freckles/pimples/etc, tinkering with eyelashes, making a fat person look a bit skinnier, etc).

Quote:
Tom, the chief video forensic expert in a case I was involved with (I filmed an assualt with me video camera) could not promise the court that my footage was unaltered even though it clearly wasn't. The simply fact that it was digital and not film meant that the footage had a lot less authority than it would otherwise have had.
Editing blurs the line between reality and fantasy. One cannot tell what is real and what is fake anymore. It was always like this (editing pics is nothing new and wealthy organizations (eg. organized criminals, spy agencies, governments, large corporations) were always able to manipulate pics). BUT the thing now is that editing is in the hands of the masses. Now anyone can do anything and pass it off. In the past, only professionals (Marsha would be the modern day equivalent) or the aforementioned organizations were able to pull it off successfully.
  #30    Top
Old December 8th, 2004, 04:50 PM
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kixphotography kixphotography is offline
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I don't think the question is what role editing plays in photography but more so is editing to be considered photography?
i.e., a photographed image vs. a digitally edited/ manipulated image. can we consider both photography?
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